The No-Hacks Approach to Business Growth with Michelle J. Raymond

Speaker A: 00:00:00

Hello and welcome to the Choosing Happy Podcast.

Speaker A: 00:00:03

I'm Heather Masters and this week I had the great pleasure of speaking with Michelle J.

Speaker A: 00:00:08

Raymond.

Speaker A: 00:00:09

Now she's a two time best selling author, she's an international speaker and a trusted LinkedIn and B2B marketing expert.

Speaker A: 00:00:18

And she brings real world experience to proven strategies and a no hacks approach to helping businesses grow sustainably.

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So you'll want to stay tuned for this one.

Speaker A: 00:00:29

It was an amazing conversation and her energy is off the charts.

Speaker A: 00:00:34

Or listen more in this week's Choosing Happy Podcast.

Speaker A: 00:00:52

Hello and welcome to the Choosing Happy Podcast.

Speaker A: 00:00:55

I'm Heather Masters and today I have the greatest pleasure of talking with Michelle J.

Speaker A: 00:01:00

Raymond, who was a two time best selling author, international speaker and trusted LinkedIn and B2B marketing expert.

Speaker A: 00:01:09

Welcome Michelle.

Speaker B: 00:01:10

It is my pleasure to be here.

Speaker B: 00:01:12

I have to say it was the Choosing Happy that really attracted me to being a guest on this show.

Speaker B: 00:01:19

I just love that name.

Speaker A: 00:01:21

Oh, good.

Speaker A: 00:01:23

It's really the essence of it is how can we choose Happy through some of the toughest times that we have to face, especially as entrepreneurs and business owners.

Speaker A: 00:01:31

So thank you for being here.

Speaker A: 00:01:33

Can you begin by sharing your journey and how you got started in the field for LinkedIn and your own business as well?

Speaker B: 00:01:42

Yeah, of course I can.

Speaker B: 00:01:43

So I never intended to be an entrepreneur, had no dreams of being a business owner.

Speaker B: 00:01:49

It happened because of what I refer to lovingly now.

Speaker B: 00:01:52

Well, as the big bang.

Speaker B: 00:01:54

So rewind the clock to: 2020

Speaker B: 00:01:59

I was working for someone else, loving my job.

Speaker B: 00:02:03

I'd been using LinkedIn for around six years as part of my sales roles.

Speaker B: 00:02:07

Just for fun.

Speaker B: 00:02:08

Yeah.

Speaker B: 00:02:09

Won about $2 million worth of business from a LinkedIn post.

Speaker B: 00:02:13

It was amazing.

Speaker B: 00:02:14

I was on the highest of highs.

Speaker B: 00:02:16

Then the person I worked for decided to renege on that deal, pushed me under a bus and tried to trash my reputation of which have no part of.

Speaker B: 00:02:25

I quit on the spot, woke up the next day and went, what just happened there?

Speaker B: 00:02:30

Like, that's not how I'd planned my week to go.

Speaker B: 00:02:33

And my partner Lil said to me, michelle, that's enough.

Speaker B: 00:02:36

You're not working for anybody else.

Speaker B: 00:02:38

Why don't you set up a business, work as hard for us as you do for everyone else, It'll be fine.

Speaker B: 00:02:43

And I was like, okay.

Speaker B: 00:02:45

You know, because I was like, okay, let's see what that is.

Speaker B: 00:02:48

And I had no idea what that business would look like.

Speaker B: 00:02:52

And I tried a couple of things, made a couple of silly mistakes.

Speaker B: 00:02:55

In the beginning not silly, just, you know, I think I wanted to do something and instead of waiting till I found the right thing, I just rushed into it.

Speaker B: 00:03:03

But fast forward a little bit of time, about six months in total.

Speaker B: 00:03:07

I did what I always did.

Speaker B: 00:03:09

I went back and the industry I'd come from, which was the beauty industry, had started to use LinkedIn.

Speaker B: 00:03:15

And so some people that used to be competitors of mine, they had started to do it.

Speaker B: 00:03:20

And I was like, you know what?

Speaker B: 00:03:21

I've been doing this for like six years in the industry.

Speaker B: 00:03:23

Nobody else was doing it.

Speaker B: 00:03:25

And if you do this, this and this, it'll really help you.

Speaker B: 00:03:28

And thankfully, the person I said that to said, oh, my God, where did you learn all of this stuff?

Speaker B: 00:03:33

I wish I could learn from you.

Speaker B: 00:03:35

And the rest, as they say, is history.

Speaker B: 00:03:37

I ran away and set up a training program, ran back, and I was like, here, I can teach you how to do this.

Speaker B: 00:03:43

And they went, we're actually fine, thanks.

Speaker B: 00:03:47

And I was shattered.

Speaker B: 00:03:48

But that was my first lesson.

Speaker B: 00:03:49

Just keep going.

Speaker B: 00:03:50

You've got to believe in your idea.

Speaker B: 00:03:52

So didn't exactly get the start that I guess a lot of people plan for.

Speaker B: 00:03:58

I'm a dive in the deep end and figure it out as I go kind of person.

Speaker B: 00:04:02

And yeah, it's turned out pretty well so far.

Speaker A: 00:04:06

Yeah, I think I can completely relate to that, especially diving in.

Speaker A: 00:04:10

I think one of the first things, especially coming from a corporate or a job, is the unexpected things that happen when you're setting up your business.

Speaker A: 00:04:21

And, you know, it's that phase of not knowing what you don't know.

Speaker A: 00:04:25

What was the.

Speaker A: 00:04:26

What was the biggest thing that you struggled with first?

Speaker B: 00:04:32

Look, there is a very long list.

Speaker B: 00:04:34

And speaking of lists, I thought that when you set up a business, because I'd been running somebody else's business for a couple of years and had been involved in some pretty senior kinds of roles in other businesses that I'd worked in.

Speaker B: 00:04:49

And I thought if you just wrote down a big long to do list of all, all the things that I knew that would create a business, and I went away and worked as hard as I could to tick those all off, then the business would be created, I would be done, and the money would start rolling in.

Speaker B: 00:05:05

That's when I learned, as soon as I ticked off the last thing that I thought I should do, that that list never disappears.

Speaker B: 00:05:12

And I'm coming up to, you know, five years of doing this.

Speaker B: 00:05:16

The list continues.

Speaker B: 00:05:17

I've never managed to cross it off.

Speaker B: 00:05:19

And I think that was, for me, is that it was never going to be done.

Speaker B: 00:05:24

There was always going to be an evolution, a continuous improvement, a striving to be better at what I do.

Speaker B: 00:05:34

And I think within that, if I had to pick one of the biggest lessons that I've had to learn is my worth as an entrepreneur, how much I should charge people.

Speaker B: 00:05:45

I cringe when I think about my very first client.

Speaker B: 00:05:49

And I went away and I was like, okay, I finally got someone to agree to be a customer.

Speaker B: 00:05:55

I have no idea what I should charge for these services.

Speaker B: 00:05:57

Quick scratching on some papers, which is nothing I'd ever done in my sales career.

Speaker B: 00:06:02

But as a business owner, I was like, okay, let's see how this goes.

Speaker B: 00:06:07

And needless to say, I was undercharging to a point where I'm even too embarrassed to even say what that number was.

Speaker B: 00:06:15

But ultimately, the.

Speaker B: 00:06:17

That's a lesson that I've had to learn the whole way along, and probably even what I'm still learning today is know thy worth.

Speaker B: 00:06:24

And it's quite often not what your brain tells you.

Speaker B: 00:06:27

It is.

Speaker A: 00:06:28

Now, one of the.

Speaker A: 00:06:30

One of the big lessons I learned last year, and I love this, is from Ray Edwards, the copywriter.

Speaker A: 00:06:35

He says, charge above resentment because it's so easy to undercharge.

Speaker A: 00:06:41

And that energy then comes across to your client, and you're not really, you know, you're thinking, oh, I should have been charging you more.

Speaker A: 00:06:47

Do you realize, you know, and that's going on in your head while you're working with the client, and it's such a.

Speaker A: 00:06:51

Such a negative state to be in.

Speaker B: 00:06:54

They feel it.

Speaker B: 00:06:55

And the lesson I learned, somebody somewhere along the way that I crossed paths with on LinkedIn, said, Get your head out of other people's wallets.

Speaker B: 00:07:04

It's not my job to worry about how much money they've got.

Speaker B: 00:07:07

It's their job to figure it out.

Speaker B: 00:07:08

And the example was, you know, if someone wants, you know, a beautiful pair of shoes, for instance, and they, you know, like, for me, I go in and I see a new pair of trainers or sneakers, whatever you like to call them, depending where you are in the world, and I really want them, I will find the money for it if I see value in it.

Speaker B: 00:07:26

And so for me, trying to not, you know, compromise myself and what I'm worth and just delivering it and saying, here's what it is, here's what I give you, and not trying to stuff it full of so much value that it's crazy, because I feel like, oh, I can't justify, you know, an extra couple of hundred Dollars unless I give even more.

Speaker B: 00:07:49

And I'm like how much more can one person give?

Speaker B: 00:07:51

And again, this is a never ending conversation on my side and I think that's money values.

Speaker B: 00:08:01

I never thought that was a piece of being an entrepreneur.

Speaker B: 00:08:04

Didn't even consider it on my original to do list.

Speaker B: 00:08:06

It wasn't even part of the conversation.

Speaker B: 00:08:08

But it's amazing how being an entrepreneur, it's brought all of that out.

Speaker A: 00:08:14

Yeah.

Speaker A: 00:08:14

And really understanding because I'm an NLP trainer as well.

Speaker A: 00:08:20

So neuro linguistic programming and understanding that what we're thinking about when we're charging isn't just about our own worth, but we're actually projecting our own limitations.

Speaker A: 00:08:30

We're putting our limitations on the people that we're serving when they might not have that it's only our own belief about them, not actually the true.

Speaker B: 00:08:40

Oh, I guilty as charged.

Speaker B: 00:08:44

I'm sitting here nodding my head for those of you who are listening to audio because I feel like you can see me.

Speaker B: 00:08:49

There were times when I decided to put my prices down in hope to try and secure clients who I thought may have not had very much money.

Speaker B: 00:08:58

And then turns out they've got 70 staff.

Speaker B: 00:09:01

A business that's been going for 30 years, you know, well beyond anything that I had achieved back in the beginning.

Speaker B: 00:09:08

And I was taught some very harsh lessons in there and ones that, you know, I guess a part of the process and you know, I'm grateful for those learning experiences but it really, I say to people, being a business owner and being an entrepreneur has taught me lessons about myself that I never in a billion years imagined I would have to learn.

Speaker B: 00:09:32

It had been a while since I'd done something that made me feel so uncomfortable and stretched me beyond what I was just good at.

Speaker B: 00:09:41

And I realized that I'd always worked with teams and there were a lot of people around me who I didn't give credit to the skills and what they brought, you know, to the entire business and you know, I've learned things about myself that I'm really rubbish at and I don't like doing.

Speaker B: 00:09:58

But as a business owner they've got to be done.

Speaker B: 00:10:01

And so trying to find ways for me to manage that is.

Speaker B: 00:10:06

Yeah, that's also on the daily to do list.

Speaker A: 00:10:10

Now just looking at you, you're absolutely glowing.

Speaker A: 00:10:13

For anyone who I love your energy and your confidence and that comes across in your LinkedIn posts.

Speaker A: 00:10:19

Well, how do you maintain that confidence?

Speaker A: 00:10:23

That energy, that vibe?

Speaker B: 00:10:25

Yeah, I mean partly it's just who I am.

Speaker B: 00:10:27

Right.

Speaker B: 00:10:28

I am the eternal optimist I am the positive person.

Speaker B: 00:10:31

I'm the person that believes that things will always be better.

Speaker B: 00:10:36

And that's not to say that this same person that's here today has great days every single day, because there's other parts of my personality that will come through at different times, where if I feel like I'm going to let somebody down, if I feel like my clients aren't happy with my work.

Speaker B: 00:10:53

And as a high performer, my standards are pretty high for myself.

Speaker B: 00:10:57

And sometimes I get myself in an absolute flap, and I'm paralyzed by it, and I sit in the corner in my spare bedroom with my laptop, trying to do the work and just can't.

Speaker B: 00:11:08

And, you know, this is where I'm really lucky, that I have a partner that just kind of proverbially says, you know, wake up to yourself.

Speaker B: 00:11:14

There's no way anyone thinks that of you.

Speaker B: 00:11:17

But I can slide into that, because for whatever reason, you know, I'm still working and growing on myself.

Speaker B: 00:11:23

But in general, I think we've got to be responsible for who we put out there, because I absolutely believe, just like what you said, that people feel that energy, and it lands on the other side, and we have to be responsible for that.

Speaker B: 00:11:38

And I listened to a podcast with Jay Clouse, and it was a TikTok creator.

Speaker B: 00:11:44

Now, I'm not on TikTok, so I'm not familiar with the actual content, but the creator was called Ms.

Speaker B: 00:11:50

Excel, and she does all TikTok tips around using Excel, which to me sounds, you know, pretty boring and would put you to sleep.

Speaker B: 00:11:58

But she's super popular, does it her way.

Speaker B: 00:12:01

I'm sure there's some dances and all kinds of other stuff, but I listened to that podcast, and she said, look, people feel it.

Speaker B: 00:12:08

And it was the moment that I went, yes, the people that I like their content are the ones that I feel like they genuinely put their heart and soul and experience into it.

Speaker B: 00:12:18

Not that.

Speaker B: 00:12:19

Right?

Speaker B: 00:12:19

The best.

Speaker B: 00:12:20

The best structured LinkedIn posts, not that have the most followers, not that are the best copywriters, but the ones that actually are passionate are the ones that I'm drawn to.

Speaker B: 00:12:31

And that includes backing themselves to have an opinion, because I think that's also a way that you can see that someone's confident and really they're a stand for my success and not their own success.

Speaker B: 00:12:45

And that is something that I think if we saw more of that on social media, it'd be more enjoyable for more people.

Speaker A: 00:12:52

I do think you've hit on something that I see is a lot of people holding themselves back, not wanting to give an opinion, not wanting to actually be who they are because they're always being told to be this, do that.

Speaker A: 00:13:07

And I even watched.

Speaker A: 00:13:09

There's a great guy, a great coach, and he, he was coaching this guy and he says, you're trying all the time, you're trying to do all of the things, but it means you're in your head, you're not in your heart, you're not being who you are.

Speaker A: 00:13:22

He says, you're even, you come across as positive, but it's not reaching your heart because you're trying all the time.

Speaker A: 00:13:30

And it's become such a habit that it's, it's automatic.

Speaker A: 00:13:33

You don't even realize you're doing it.

Speaker A: 00:13:35

And I think that's really powerful, especially in the space of when you're learning social media and creating content, there's so many to do's, you can kind of lose yourself in that.

Speaker A: 00:13:47

So how did you avoid doing that?

Speaker B: 00:13:49

I didn't.

Speaker B: 00:13:50

I learned from my mistakes or I grew through them.

Speaker B: 00:13:54

And if I rewind the clock to when I set up my business, I'd been creating content on LinkedIn for fun for around six years.

Speaker B: 00:14:03

You know, it wasn't a paid job for me, it was something that I did that I discovered, oh, I like talking to people, I like problem solving, I like helping people.

Speaker B: 00:14:12

Social was a world that opened up a whole range of new customers for me in my previous sales jobs.

Speaker B: 00:14:18

And I was having fun.

Speaker B: 00:14:19

There was no KPIs, there was no pressure.

Speaker B: 00:14:21

I just did what I wanted to do and I showed up how I wanted to show up and it was fun.

Speaker B: 00:14:26

And then I became LinkedIn trainer Michelle and I had my own business.

Speaker B: 00:14:31

And if you go back to my content around that time, I pretty much sounded like the LinkedIn help desk because I looked around at all the other LinkedIn trainers and I went, oh, if I'm a LinkedIn trainer, I should do these kinds of things.

Speaker B: 00:14:44

And because what happened was it took me about three months and I got to the end of the year and my mind was just going, if this is what it is, being a business owner and this is how I have to do LinkedIn, I don't think I want to be a business owner because I'm exhausted mentally.

Speaker B: 00:15:03

I'm not enjoying this.

Speaker B: 00:15:05

It's an absolute slog and I've got so many things on my plate.

Speaker B: 00:15:09

I don't know if this is the right idea for me.

Speaker B: 00:15:12

And that's where the concept that I created and I work with my Clients now is it's about creating your digital twin, not showing up on LinkedIn as the LinkedIn version of yourself that you think everybody else expects or that you should hold all of these pieces back on.

Speaker B: 00:15:29

And you know where this line is for people, about where personal is.

Speaker B: 00:15:32

I'm not saying share your private life, but there's been personable and relatable and letting people have a little insight into what makes you up as an actual person.

Speaker B: 00:15:44

Because we want to work with people where we share their values.

Speaker B: 00:15:47

We want to work with people we know like and trust.

Speaker B: 00:15:51

And I wasn't showing people that.

Speaker B: 00:15:53

You could have found anything that I was sharing on.

Speaker B: 00:15:55

You know, like I said, the about section, sorry, the Help section on LinkedIn or Google it, or these days just ChatGPT.

Speaker B: 00:16:02

I wasn't confident enough to use my own opinions and so that has taken time.

Speaker B: 00:16:08

Some days I'm better at it than others.

Speaker B: 00:16:11

To other people watching that are just getting started, they would probably think, oh my God, I don't know how you can ever do that.

Speaker B: 00:16:17

I don't particularly like sharing things about my private life or, you know, personal life too much.

Speaker B: 00:16:23

Like, there are some spaces that I'm prepared to go into and then the rest of it's mine to keep.

Speaker B: 00:16:28

And I think when you set up those clear boundaries, then it becomes a lot easier and they may move over time as you get more confident or you may discover that actually you want to keep more stuff back and it's totally fine.

Speaker B: 00:16:42

But just do LinkedIn your way and it's just so much more fun.

Speaker A: 00:16:48

You touched on two big things, the know, like and trust, which is becoming so much more important in the culture that we're in and the way that social media has changed over the last few years.

Speaker A: 00:17:02

And the other one is AI, which kind of adds to that as well.

Speaker A: 00:17:07

You know, it is all about relationship and being authentic.

Speaker A: 00:17:10

And it's always we buy from people.

Speaker A: 00:17:13

Is that what you found, especially on LinkedIn?

Speaker B: 00:17:17

Yeah, it's an interesting time.

Speaker B: 00:17:18

You know, on one hand we've got these AI tools which seem to open up new worlds for us, make life apparently easier for us.

Speaker B: 00:17:26

And there are so many upsides to a lot of these tools that are just coming at us so quickly.

Speaker B: 00:17:33

And on the flip side, there's now this hole where nurturing relationships used to be and having conversations and being interested in other people as much as those tools doesn't happen anymore.

Speaker B: 00:17:48

And I think as someone that spent my career as account managers or in business development or sales leadership type roles, I'VE always been responsible for nurturing relationships within business.

Speaker B: 00:18:01

And so my fear is, with all of the AI that's coming is that people are trying to outsource themselves, outsource relationships and let the robots do the work for them.

Speaker B: 00:18:12

And it's just backfiring.

Speaker B: 00:18:14

You can see it right now, where the excitement of AI was here, it's being replaced by the machines are taking over.

Speaker B: 00:18:23

The people that use them are seen as lazy or cheaters or lots of negative connotations.

Speaker B: 00:18:29

And I'm not sure I'm quite there.

Speaker B: 00:18:31

But at the same time I think they're craving that human connection.

Speaker B: 00:18:34

And again, it's a social media platform, it might be a professional one, but I still think we're in an age where people are craving that interaction with people because at the end of the day, if you're going to pay someone else money, you want to be certain that it's the right person.

Speaker B: 00:18:51

And some of these tools and things are making some people look way better than what they actually are.

Speaker B: 00:18:58

So I think we have to exercise a fair bit of caution and question things more that curiosity and just, just checking and that gut check.

Speaker B: 00:19:09

Is this too good to be true?

Speaker B: 00:19:12

If the answer is I think it is, then chances are it is.

Speaker A: 00:19:17

Yeah, I saw, I can't remember who it was.

Speaker A: 00:19:20

It's someone I've not seen before.

Speaker A: 00:19:21

It was only a two minute video on YouTube yesterday.

Speaker A: 00:19:24

But basically saying that we're going through a phase where people, anyone can learn AI and as you say, put out content that looks amazing but there's no depth to it and it's those learn, the people with the learned experience as well as the knowledge, the life experience to bring to social are the ones who are going to last in the long term.

Speaker A: 00:19:48

So we're going to go through a phase where they're going to make a lot of short term success.

Speaker A: 00:19:52

But the ones who last beyond that, the ones with the genuine knowledge, the genuine, as you say, the commitment, the heart, the enthusiasm for what they're doing because it is all about that energy and that relationship.

Speaker A: 00:20:07

And as we saw, I think there was a phase where, well, I suppose it was when social media started to happen, where everyone was jumping on the bandwagon and marketing but not everyone was able to deliver.

Speaker A: 00:20:19

And that's kind of what we're seeing again with AI.

Speaker A: 00:20:26

What do we do to avoid that?

Speaker B: 00:20:29

I think you have to, you know, as my friend Michelle Griffin says, stay in your own lane.

Speaker B: 00:20:33

You know, stop trying to be everything to everyone and just think, what do I want to be known for.

Speaker B: 00:20:40

So for me on LinkedIn, it's mostly LinkedIn company pages or LinkedIn for B2B growth.

Speaker B: 00:20:45

They're probably the two pieces of the puzzle that most people know me.

Speaker B: 00:20:49

And I've gone through stages over the five years where when I first started, everybody was hating on LinkedIn company pages.

Speaker B: 00:20:58

Michelle, why would you even tell people to use them?

Speaker B: 00:21:01

And they would go hardcore in the comments and challenge me on that.

Speaker B: 00:21:06

And so on one hand, I was getting noticed for it and standing out, and I was the obvious go to choice.

Speaker B: 00:21:11

And on the other hand, there were lots of people that disagreed with me.

Speaker B: 00:21:15

So I went through stages where I went, hey, I've spent 20 years in B2B sales.

Speaker B: 00:21:19

I could also teach people how to use social selling on LinkedIn, or I can write LinkedIn profiles, or I could do this or that.

Speaker B: 00:21:26

And so I would go into these generalist kind of things and then go, oh, I've just put myself into the crowd with everybody else and I don't stand out.

Speaker B: 00:21:35

Company pages are what gives me the opportunities to do things like come on this podcast or, you know, my international speaking events have happened because I'm the only one that pretty much talks on company pages.

Speaker B: 00:21:47

And so it was getting myself and that confidence to back myself that, no, this is something that's important.

Speaker B: 00:21:54

I believe in it.

Speaker B: 00:21:56

I can deliver, you know, answers to businesses that will help them get more out of their page.

Speaker B: 00:22:02

And, you know, it's paid off for me.

Speaker B: 00:22:03

But there's definitely been times when I've wanted to throw that away and felt like if I was just like all the other LinkedIn trainers, my business would grow, when in fact, the opposite is true.

Speaker B: 00:22:15

When I'm not like all of them, my business grows.

Speaker B: 00:22:17

And so, you know, I don't.

Speaker B: 00:22:19

Again, I'm certainly not here to say that I'm perfect.

Speaker B: 00:22:23

I'm learning every day just like everybody else.

Speaker B: 00:22:25

But, yeah, some of these lessons I learn a bit faster than others.

Speaker A: 00:22:31

Oh, it's taken me forever.

Speaker A: 00:22:33

And I know this is, you know, I'm sure that especially in the coaching space, the wanting to be a generalist and attract everyone because you think you can help everyone.

Speaker A: 00:22:45

I mean, I've got diverse background and I'm not young.

Speaker A: 00:22:51

So, you know, so I, I've done tech.

Speaker A: 00:22:53

I've.

Speaker A: 00:22:54

I'm an NLP trainer.

Speaker A: 00:22:56

I've cared for my mom and dad.

Speaker A: 00:22:58

I, you know, I have so much.

Speaker A: 00:23:00

I write as well.

Speaker A: 00:23:02

I've spent since: 2008

Speaker A: 00:23:06

I used to train it.

Speaker A: 00:23:08

I don't anymore.

Speaker A: 00:23:09

So I've got this background and trying to pull together where that all fits.

Speaker A: 00:23:14

Believe it or not, I've actually only really chosen my niche and as I say, it's taken, well, where does it all fit?

Speaker A: 00:23:22

And in a way, AI has helped that.

Speaker A: 00:23:25

So, you know, I'm moving into writing and automation for NLP trainers to get them more clients.

Speaker A: 00:23:36

So it's all come together, but it's taken a long time to be able to put all those pieces and pull them into one space.

Speaker A: 00:23:44

It's not always easy.

Speaker A: 00:23:47

Do you, and I know this is something that I've done, is to choose a niche and test it.

Speaker A: 00:23:55

Is that what you would suggest people do?

Speaker B: 00:23:58

Yeah.

Speaker B: 00:23:59

And I mean, these niches can be all kinds of different kind of ways that we can divvy things up.

Speaker B: 00:24:05

It could be by your target audience, which is in general.

Speaker B: 00:24:09

Quite often I have people come to me and they're like, do you specialize in any kind of industry?

Speaker B: 00:24:13

And I'm like, no, I work across industries because what I'm teaching is a framework to leverage LinkedIn.

Speaker B: 00:24:20

So as long as you're the subject matter expert, I don't need to.

Speaker B: 00:24:23

I've got a.

Speaker B: 00:24:24

Like you, I've had a pretty crazy background as well, so there's lots of pieces of the puzzle that I can work from.

Speaker B: 00:24:30

But for me, I was always trying to put myself into a little box and I'd never felt comfortable with that.

Speaker B: 00:24:37

So then I realized, actually I like helping businesses get started on LinkedIn, you know, so there was business bits that popped out.

Speaker B: 00:24:45

I don't work with one particular geography.

Speaker B: 00:24:48

I work with people all over the world.

Speaker B: 00:24:49

So there's probably been pieces of general advice out there that I tried on from time to time and they didn't fit.

Speaker B: 00:24:58

Same as I went hard with company pages, didn't talk about anything else.

Speaker B: 00:25:03

I was probably a little bit early for, you know, the market out there, and I hadn't set up my products and services to align with that niche.

Speaker B: 00:25:12

And so what happened was I talk about company pages, but realistically, I was making money from training people who wanted their staff to get active on LinkedIn.

Speaker B: 00:25:20

And those two things weren't making sense to either of those audiences.

Speaker B: 00:25:24

So people that knew me for company pages who wanted to buy something from me, I'm like, yeah, I haven't really developed a product for that because I can't figure out what I would sell you back in the beginning.

Speaker B: 00:25:35

And on the other side, I didn't want to talk about how to get your employees Active, because I'm the company page person.

Speaker B: 00:25:41

And so I was in a world of pain and a world of confusion.

Speaker B: 00:25:46

And it certainly has taken time.

Speaker B: 00:25:49

So sometimes trying to figure out where your market is so that there's actually someone at the end of the day to pay the bills because, you know, it's all well and good to being super niche, but if there's no one that's going to actually be in that market to pay you, then, you know, it's just a hobby, really.

Speaker B: 00:26:05

And that's okay to have hobbies, but if you're an entrepreneur and trying to grow a business, there's gotta be people out there that at the end the day, you can invoice.

Speaker B: 00:26:12

So, you know, I think these things change over time.

Speaker B: 00:26:16

The drive within me to always go broader and more general because I think that opens up the market is something that I'll always have to catch myself, I think, because I think it's human nature to think if we open up to everyone, more opportunities will come.

Speaker B: 00:26:34

It feels counterintuitive to this day to squish ourselves into a niche and that then becomes the way that we grow our business.

Speaker B: 00:26:44

And, you know, so that I think for people out there, I wish I had some kind of, you know, magic silver bullet that could, you know, immediately say, if you do this, it's the answer to your prayers.

Speaker B: 00:26:56

The world changes, businesses change, I changed, my customers have changed.

Speaker B: 00:27:02

Right now I'm finding people, for instance, you know, aren't as prepared to put money into training, but they will pay money to make problems go away, do the work for them.

Speaker B: 00:27:12

And so I've had to shift what I offer just for now and, you know, like, that's fine.

Speaker B: 00:27:18

That's.

Speaker B: 00:27:19

That's part of adapting and, you know, getting on with things.

Speaker A: 00:27:23

Talking about what you offer and specifically LinkedIn pages, because I do find that quite interesting because I've had a page for years, but right at the beginning, nothing really happened with was hard work, so I hadn't touched it.

Speaker A: 00:27:38

I'm only looking at it now because of your work.

Speaker A: 00:27:42

So I've started to.

Speaker A: 00:27:43

And I'm still not really putting in the effort right now because I've gone through this shift of my niche.

Speaker A: 00:27:50

So how.

Speaker A: 00:27:52

Because I noticed you use LinkedIn pages in a different way from everyone else.

Speaker A: 00:27:56

Can you explain a little bit about that?

Speaker B: 00:27:59

Yeah, look, and LinkedIn pages aren't right for everybody.

Speaker B: 00:28:02

If you are a solopreneur or a micro business that's listening to this podcast, it is not worth your time and effort to be Focusing on your growing your LinkedIn company page.

Speaker B: 00:28:13

So I'll just put that one out there.

Speaker B: 00:28:15

You are better off building your personal brand.

Speaker B: 00:28:18

Now, of course there's never a one size fits all and the usual disclaimers, I don't know anything about your business goals or where you're trying to head, but the way that I look at them has always been a bit different is I'm not asking people to choose one or the other.

Speaker B: 00:28:33

Build your company page or build your personal brand.

Speaker B: 00:28:35

When I speak to businesses, it's all about the power of two.

Speaker B: 00:28:38

So one plus one equals three.

Speaker B: 00:28:41

The synergy that comes between those two things.

Speaker B: 00:28:43

Working together gets you better results and so we find what the best of personal brand is and then we work out how can the company page help you get better results than just those personal brands alone.

Speaker B: 00:28:55

And part of that is because I was the one in businesses that built my amazing personal brand.

Speaker B: 00:29:00

When I was in the beauty industry, the business relied on me.

Speaker B: 00:29:03

Michelle's got it covered.

Speaker B: 00:29:05

And yeah, what happens when I change jobs?

Speaker B: 00:29:07

The business had nothing left and then they're invisible on, you know, the platform.

Speaker B: 00:29:12

And so this is why I have these conversations with people is so that they understand they work together, not one against the other.

Speaker B: 00:29:21

No point comparing them.

Speaker B: 00:29:22

But I use my company brand even though we're a small business of two, just like, you know, probably many of the listeners.

Speaker B: 00:29:29

But what happens is is that we use B2B growth code to build up Michelle J.

Speaker B: 00:29:34

Raymond and vice versa.

Speaker B: 00:29:37

So I quite often most of the content that's on our company page is repurposed from other places that I've created content.

Speaker B: 00:29:45

So it could be like if I'm guesting on podcasts, it could be a newsletter that I've done, it could be a link LinkedIn live that I chop up into little bits, but I'm not recreating for new stuff.

Speaker B: 00:29:56

And for some people out there, if you don't have that much content, but you should have a company page ticking over because sometimes people will land on it from a Google search when they've searched your business name if they come across.

Speaker B: 00:30:07

We just want to make sure we create a good impression.

Speaker B: 00:30:09

And sometimes reposting your best performing personal posts onto your company page can be a simple and easy way to do that.

Speaker A: 00:30:17

That you touched on newsletters.

Speaker A: 00:30:21

I noticed you've gone through a whole exploration of LinkedIn newsletters.

Speaker A: 00:30:25

Can you share what you found?

Speaker B: 00:30:28

Look, I love newsletters.

Speaker B: 00:30:30

I think between newsletters and LinkedIn lives, they're my two favorite content formats.

Speaker B: 00:30:35

On LinkedIn.

Speaker B: 00:30:36

I love them because I enjoy writing.

Speaker B: 00:30:40

So that's, that's one piece of it.

Speaker B: 00:30:41

And I love that you can go deeper on topics, you know, you don't have to just keep everything to, you know, let's call it roughly a thousand to twelve hundred characters or, you know, sometimes less.

Speaker B: 00:30:52

And for me, the other reason that I like it is you build up subscribers.

Speaker B: 00:30:56

So posting on LinkedIn right now, we are getting absolutely smashed by the algorithm and the numbers we could rely on last year or the year before.

Speaker B: 00:31:05

We can't rely on that anymore.

Speaker B: 00:31:07

It's probably dropped by about 50% in reality for most people.

Speaker B: 00:31:13

Why I love the newsletter is you build up subscribers and you're not fighting over appearing in the home feed.

Speaker B: 00:31:18

So every time I do my newsletter, those people that have subscribed get notified and as long as they've got their notifications turned on, then they will receive it.

Speaker B: 00:31:28

Now I'll use my, my real numbers.

Speaker B: 00:31:30

I've got roughly 10, 000 newsletter subscribers on LinkedIn.

Speaker B: 00:31:34

I love it because they help.

Speaker B: 00:31:35

Every time someone tries to connect with me, they will invite them to my newsletter.

Speaker B: 00:31:39

And I just love it because I don't have to try and do anything or remember to send a link or anything along those lines.

Speaker B: 00:31:46

Now that 10,000, the notification goes out.

Speaker B: 00:31:49

I did a newsletter today.

Speaker B: 00:31:52

I know that from the stats from LinkedIn roughly 40% of those will open it.

Speaker B: 00:31:57

So let's just say that's roughly 4,000 people, which is amazing.

Speaker B: 00:32:02

Now on my post right now, I might get get, you know, on a good day at the moment, probably two and a half thousand impressions.

Speaker B: 00:32:09

So immediately the newsletter is delivering more results.

Speaker B: 00:32:12

It's indexed by Google as well.

Speaker B: 00:32:15

So there's a chance of being discovered out there by, you know, ChatGPT and all the other AI programs because it's on Google, not just on LinkedIn.

Speaker B: 00:32:23

And I love it because you can put photos in there, you can put videos in there, you can embed posts.

Speaker B: 00:32:28

Like, there's so many cool ways that you can use it and so many different ways that you can format it in a way that works for you.

Speaker B: 00:32:37

So for me, I take my podcasts and I take the transcript and I turn it into something that's usable for the people like me.

Speaker B: 00:32:45

So full confession.

Speaker B: 00:32:46

I run two of my own podcasts.

Speaker B: 00:32:49

I guessed on other people's like this one, but I can't listen to them.

Speaker B: 00:32:54

That's my dirty secret.

Speaker B: 00:32:55

I don't listen to podcasts.

Speaker B: 00:32:57

I love reading.

Speaker B: 00:32:59

So newsletters are a space for other People like me who enjoy reading to get, you know, access to what's in the, in the podcast.

Speaker B: 00:33:06

So, so many great ways, so many cool ways.

Speaker B: 00:33:09

And the cool tip is if you haven't got one and you've got like a few thousand followers on your personal brand and it works for your company page as well, but the very first one that goes out goes to every single one of your connections and followers on LinkedIn or all of your page followers.

Speaker B: 00:33:29

Now that's a free kick as far as I'm.

Speaker B: 00:33:31

It's the only time on LinkedIn you can be guaranteed that your post will go to everyone.

Speaker B: 00:33:36

In my experience, you can expect roughly 30% of your connections and followers to become subscribers from that first one.

Speaker B: 00:33:45

So if you've got a decent number, it's a pretty good chance to get people on board.

Speaker A: 00:33:50

That's something worth knowing rather than just putting out something that you think is just testing the water to actually put some real effort into that first one as well.

Speaker B: 00:33:58

The first one's the golden one.

Speaker A: 00:34:00

Yeah, brilliant.

Speaker A: 00:34:03

The other thing, and this is just my experience, is I know that video on LinkedIn is now becoming very popular, whereas it was a bit difficult before.

Speaker A: 00:34:16

And it's not the first place you think of going to, to put video for your business, especially live.

Speaker A: 00:34:22

How are you finding that?

Speaker B: 00:34:25

I have mixed opinions about this.

Speaker B: 00:34:27

you know, the last quarter of: 2024

Speaker B: 00:34:44

Then after that they turned it back down and all of a sudden they say, yeah, our growth on short form videos, the vertical ones, yeah, it's gone through the roof.

Speaker B: 00:34:52

It's, you know, up like crazy.

Speaker B: 00:34:54

My personal experience in my network of people that I are, you know, in similar businesses to me, I keep a track of what everyone's saying.

Speaker B: 00:35:02

I haven't heard anyone raving about it.

Speaker B: 00:35:05

I certainly didn't hear anyone besides getting those huge impressions say that their followers grew, that their business grew, that there was any real upside for those people that were creating videos.

Speaker B: 00:35:15

So from that perspective of is there a place for short form video on LinkedIn?

Speaker B: 00:35:21

Yes, there is no doubt that other popular platforms like TikTok, shorts, reels, they've shown us that, you know, especially Gen Z, they, they love that and relate to that type of format on LinkedIn.

Speaker B: 00:35:36

Like you said, it's going to take us a little bit of getting used to because it's been a really text Heavy platform.

Speaker B: 00:35:41

It's personally why I love it.

Speaker B: 00:35:43

I, I don't enjoy watching the short form videos.

Speaker B: 00:35:46

You know, it's fine sometimes, but it's not where I go to.

Speaker B: 00:35:50

Maybe to be entertained, but.

Speaker B: 00:35:53

And that's not to say there aren't people teaching a lot of stuff, you know, on those platforms.

Speaker B: 00:35:57

It's just not how I learn.

Speaker B: 00:35:59

So if I want to learn something by video, go to YouTube.

Speaker B: 00:36:02

I'm not thinking, oh, I'll go on my LinkedIn and go and see who's got a video.

Speaker A: 00:36:06

So.

Speaker B: 00:36:07

And I don't think LinkedIn's worked out how it's going to play out.

Speaker B: 00:36:09

Like, it was there, it was here, we've had feeds, they removed it, there were suggested videos.

Speaker B: 00:36:15

Like they're all over the place.

Speaker B: 00:36:17

So interesting to see how it plays out.

Speaker B: 00:36:20

But I love LinkedIn lives.

Speaker B: 00:36:22

To answer this other part of your question, they are my favorite.

Speaker B: 00:36:26

I have loved them for the last kind of five years.

Speaker B: 00:36:31

So LinkedIn lives and newsletters for me are the power combo for building community and staying in touch with the community.

Speaker B: 00:36:39

So I hadn't done one for a little while, did one yesterday and I was like, why don't I do these more often?

Speaker B: 00:36:43

Like, it's so cool to have people engaged in the comments sense and then be able to see me because, you know, that's, that's part of building that, the trust with people.

Speaker A: 00:36:53

Absolutely, yeah.

Speaker A: 00:36:54

And known.

Speaker A: 00:36:55

Well, hopefully knowing that you're AI, but it's becoming even harder with video now.

Speaker B: 00:36:59

Can I tell you, I have been accused.

Speaker B: 00:37:02

I was on Christo's podcast and he has a million YouTube subscribers and it was on there.

Speaker B: 00:37:08

I have been accused in the comments that I was AI.

Speaker B: 00:37:11

So that's like a whole other thing.

Speaker B: 00:37:14

I was like, no, I've just practiced a lot, you know, my conversations, my speaking.

Speaker B: 00:37:18

Like, my hair is never out of place.

Speaker B: 00:37:20

That's just who I am.

Speaker B: 00:37:22

But yeah, there was like a whole thread in the comments of how I was just AI, and I was like, wow, I don't know if that's a compliment or something I should be angry about, but that's what the world is kind of looking at that.

Speaker B: 00:37:36

Like, I guess that's what the world is looking through that lens right now.

Speaker B: 00:37:40

Is it real or isn't it?

Speaker B: 00:37:41

And that line's pretty blurry.

Speaker A: 00:37:43

Yeah, it got even blurrier last week, didn't it?

Speaker A: 00:37:46

The new launches of the videos.

Speaker A: 00:37:50

Really, it's getting where you really don't know.

Speaker B: 00:37:53

Yeah, there are some of them that are going on right now.

Speaker B: 00:37:57

That I don't think you've got any chance as a normal individual.

Speaker B: 00:38:00

And this is where that critical analysis of things has got to come in.

Speaker B: 00:38:06

And I'm still not even sure that even with that, that most people would understand the gaming that goes on, on social, you know, the engagement pods, the automation, the copying viral templates, all that kind of stuff is a whole other world that the everyday user is not on there to try and understand LinkedIn to the degree that I do, or maybe you do, they're just like, I just want to grow my business, you know, like I don't care about all this other stuff, I just want leads to come in.

Speaker B: 00:38:33

And yeah, there's a whole other dark side to social and, and yeah, it's unfortunate, but it is what it is, I guess.

Speaker A: 00:38:42

Now I have to say I spent all of yesterday looking at how I can automate the research and the data gathering from LinkedIn and kind of suggested posts in terms of checking what's going viral, but also the research.

Speaker A: 00:38:59

It's really interesting the amount of data you can get because if you look at, you choose someone that maybe you want to work with, it will go through and look at their website, it look at all their LinkedIn posts, it'll look at what, what they're interested in, what they've commented on and gives you all that information.

Speaker A: 00:39:18

So, so rather than being one of these cold DMers who reach out, contact you and immediately start to try and sell you, it at least gives you the information to know whether you can serve them, whether your solution is a good fit.

Speaker A: 00:39:35

And those, I think the first things you should be looking at before you even reach out to someone.

Speaker A: 00:39:40

But then the, the know how to, to know where you have that synergy and can build that relationship.

Speaker A: 00:39:47

So I can see it working well and it has the power to do the outreach for you and I think that's, that's where you stop, you know, don't automate the DMs.

Speaker B: 00:39:57

Yeah, I, I am so anti that I think that that's something either two parts to it.

Speaker B: 00:40:03

One, I worked in sales for so long, so it was always my job and I know how complicated that initial contact is with people.

Speaker B: 00:40:11

The nuances that you've got to adapt very quickly, the understanding that people are getting bombarded and I think we'll see more and more that people will stop posting, they'll stop responding and we're going to go through like a really challenging period where if you want to get to those, those B2B buyers or the decision Makers, they're going to have to come up with something pretty impressive to get their attention.

Speaker B: 00:40:35

And I don't think another well crafted outreach email or DM on LinkedIn is going to do it anymore.

Speaker B: 00:40:43

I know some of my other, you know, friends that are LinkedIn trainers are recommending voice notes or things like short, short videos that you can record in the DMs and just make yourself stand out against all of that kind of stuff.

Speaker B: 00:40:56

So, you know, I think there's a lot that we're going to see change again, that's, that's going to be guaranteed.

Speaker B: 00:41:03

But I think we're going through a pretty bumpy period maybe for the rest of this year while we figure out how we all feel about AI tools, where they fit, what things culturally we accept as like maybe etiquette, what are the lines that people don't want other people to cross.

Speaker B: 00:41:21

And you know, of course we'll always come across people that push those boundaries either way.

Speaker B: 00:41:26

And so there'll be those that will be just pushing no AI.

Speaker B: 00:41:31

Let's just all say analog.

Speaker B: 00:41:32

And I don't think that's realistic either.

Speaker B: 00:41:35

But where that line falls, yeah, that's anyone's guess to watch.

Speaker A: 00:41:40

Yeah, I think we've crossed the line in terms of AI going away.

Speaker A: 00:41:44

It's not going away.

Speaker A: 00:41:46

It really isn't accelerating so quickly.

Speaker B: 00:41:49

Yeah, and I think that's it.

Speaker B: 00:41:52

I recently went on another trip to do some international speaking and get stuck on a plane for 24 hours.

Speaker B: 00:41:58

And you watch a lot of the movies and one of them was basically in a world where it was the machines which had been designed to help.

Speaker B: 00:42:08

Now all of those machines had been banned and there'd been a big war where the humans versus the machines and it all came to an end and no one was allowed to have machines anymore.

Speaker B: 00:42:18

And I hope that we don't live into futures like that where the machines take over because, you know, I, I think getting out and meeting people and that kind of stuff is going to become even more special and more important.

Speaker B: 00:42:31

And, you know, where does social media fit within that?

Speaker B: 00:42:35

Again, I'm monitoring this to keep an eye on it, but for now I'm really probably going to be dialing back my content to be even more human, even more, this is who I am so that, that people can see, like you said, that the warts and all version of me, not the polished perfection that people expect from social.

Speaker B: 00:42:58

And just like, this is who I am, like, this is what it takes, you know, and this is my opinions on things and this is my experience on things.

Speaker B: 00:43:07

And I think that's how we can distinguish ourselves, is by sharing those anecdotes and those, you know, war stories that come with our experiences is, you know, we've developed these careers and sharing some of that knowledge.

Speaker B: 00:43:20

And, you know, I can't share stories.

Speaker B: 00:43:23

Your personal experience, it can help you share it.

Speaker B: 00:43:26

Like, if you give it, you know, the, the details, it'll help you do it better and refine it, but it will never know exactly what you've been through.

Speaker B: 00:43:34

And yeah, I think that's, that's the thing.

Speaker B: 00:43:37

Just, you know, we've got to stay connected at the end of the day.

Speaker A: 00:43:43

On that note, coming back to who you are.

Speaker A: 00:43:47

So, for happiness, what does happiness mean to you?

Speaker B: 00:43:50

Happiness for me is, you know, I don't know, like, happiness for me is who I am, right?

Speaker B: 00:43:58

And I don't mean that in a silly way, but I want people to feel lighter and happier when they're around me.

Speaker B: 00:44:06

It's why I use the, the smile emoji far more times than anybody probably on this planet should.

Speaker B: 00:44:11

But it genuinely is who I am.

Speaker B: 00:44:14

You know, people, I had my head shots taken recently and the guy was like, can you like, half smile?

Speaker B: 00:44:21

I was like, I can't half smile.

Speaker B: 00:44:22

Like, I always full smile.

Speaker B: 00:44:24

Like, I say hi to people at bus stops.

Speaker B: 00:44:26

I'm the person you don't want to sit next to on a train or a plane because I want to chat to you.

Speaker B: 00:44:31

Like, I, I love people and I love, I, you know, I miss that kind of connection that goes on where, you know, your neighbors, you know, I think it's the best thing in the world.

Speaker B: 00:44:40

I've now got neighbors that, you know, we talk to in, in Sydney.

Speaker B: 00:44:44

That's not a, that's not something that happens often.

Speaker B: 00:44:47

And so I love that kind of thing.

Speaker B: 00:44:49

But being happy, it's the simple things.

Speaker B: 00:44:52

It's.

Speaker B: 00:44:52

I, I do a job that I love.

Speaker B: 00:44:54

I, you know, I love my family, which involves my cat, my dog, and my partner, Lil, and it's those things.

Speaker B: 00:45:01

I've got opportunities and choices in life and, you know, my life wasn't always like that.

Speaker B: 00:45:05

You know, I, I had my train wreck era in my younger years and made some silly choices thinking the world was all sunshine and fairies.

Speaker B: 00:45:13

So I'm not naive to that, but I'm very grateful for what I have now.

Speaker B: 00:45:17

And I think that's what makes me happy, is just having that gratitude that I have an amazing life and I have choices.

Speaker B: 00:45:25

And if you've got choices, then you know, life's a good place to be.

Speaker A: 00:45:32

Lovely.

Speaker A: 00:45:33

And if you had one final tip for listeners, what would that be.

Speaker B: 00:45:40

Really, when it comes to social is show up.

Speaker B: 00:45:45

As I said earlier, as your digital twin, there is only one of you in this world and there is space for everybody on the platform.

Speaker B: 00:45:53

The only time it will go pear shaped is when you actually try and be something that you're not, or try and copy someone else, or try and pretend something that you're doing is not what you genuinely would want to be doing.

Speaker B: 00:46:08

And so the more that I can encourage that, I mean, I don't want to throw around the word authenticity because I think it's just been done to death and somewhere along the line we've lost what that actually means.

Speaker B: 00:46:19

But.

Speaker B: 00:46:20

But just show up as you and that's more than enough.

Speaker B: 00:46:24

You don't need to be a LinkedIn version of you or any of the other social platforms.

Speaker B: 00:46:29

And the best part about it is the more you do that, you'll attract the right kind of people.

Speaker B: 00:46:34

And in my lessons as a business owner, it's often repelling the wrong kinds of people that you don't want to work with.

Speaker B: 00:46:42

And if I look at the caliber of the clients I work with today versus four and a half years ago, I hated doing the work.

Speaker B: 00:46:51

Back in the beginning, I was like, what is going on here?

Speaker B: 00:46:54

What are these people?

Speaker B: 00:46:55

This isn't what I signed up for.

Speaker B: 00:46:57

But fast forward now I get to work with purpose driven, ambitious, innovative clients who are doing some really cool things in the world.

Speaker B: 00:47:07

And that's the power of branding.

Speaker B: 00:47:09

So, yeah, show up as who you are.

Speaker B: 00:47:10

There's plenty of space.

Speaker A: 00:47:13

Brilliant.

Speaker A: 00:47:14

Well, thank you so much.

Speaker A: 00:47:15

It's been such a pleasure.

Speaker A: 00:47:16

Michelle, thanks for being here.

Speaker B: 00:47:18

Oh, it's my pleasure.

Speaker B: 00:47:19

Thanks for letting me have this kind of trip down memory lane in some ways.

Speaker B: 00:47:24

And I think that's important to realize how far you've come.

Speaker B: 00:47:27

So I appreciate this opportunity.

Speaker A: 00:47:30

Oh, thank you.

Speaker A: 00:47:32

Hopefully have you back again.

Speaker B: 00:47:34

Of course.

Speaker B: 00:47:34

Anytime.

Speaker A: 00:47:37

Take care of.

Speaker A: 00:47:38

Cheers.

Speaker A: 00:47:40

Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to this week's episode.

Speaker A: 00:47:44

If you enjoyed it or think it would be valuable to others, please do share.

Speaker A: 00:47:48

And if you really enjoyed it, please leave me a review.

Speaker A: 00:47:51

It really helps the podcast.

Speaker A: 00:47:54

All of the links are in the show notes and I look forward to seeing you next week on the Choosing Happy Podcast.

Speaker B: 00:48:07

Sam.